Responses to 'Older Words', Ancient Creeds, Basis of Union

Our Words of Faith:
Cherished, Honoured, Living
Response Sheet

Name: ______________ Date: __________ (optional)

Session 1: “Older Words of Faith”

Basis of Union – Articles of Faith

Read the headlines aloud – ask who recognizes them, from when & where.

Are these “our” words of faith – in the group, the congregation, the wider church?

What group, or part of the wider church would buy or reject them in 1925 or now?

Are they ‘cherished’, ‘honoured’, ‘living’? Which word fits this statement best?

Do they express and inform, or reflect:
a) Continuity with historic, older ways…?
b) Current practice of the United Church… as it is emerging?
c) Local practice of Thornhill UC…?

What parts, lines, or words were easiest for you to say with us?


What parts, lines, or words were hardest for you to say with us?




Our Words of Faith:
Cherished, Honoured, & Living
Response Sheet

Name: ______________ Date: __________ (optional)

Session 1: “Older Words of Faith”

“Ancient Creeds” - Apostles & Nicene Creeds

Read them aloud – and ask who recognizes them, from when and where.

Are these “our” words of faith – in the group, the congregation, the wider church?

If not, whose words are they – what group, or part of the wider church?

Are they ‘cherished’, ‘honoured’, ‘living’? Which word fits this statement best?

Do they express and inform, or reflect:
a) Continuity with historic, older ways…?
b) Current practice of the United Church… as it is emerging?
c) Local practice of Thornhill UC…?

What parts, lines, or words were easiest for you to say with us?


What parts, lines, or words were hardest for you to say with us?


Here are some notes from participants in our sessions:
Session 1: “Older Words of Faith”

“Ancient Creeds” - Apostles & Nicene Creeds

Read them aloud – and ask who recognizes them, from when and where.
• I remember them when I was a teenager preparing to join the church in Hartland NB
• Used to know them both by heart!
• From Church of England childhood, sung Eucharist

Are these “our” words of faith – in the group, the congregation, the wider church?
• NO – underlined 4 times
• NO
• No
• NO
• I find the creeds more dated/distant than articles of faith
• No – not current – gender based – reference to “Virgin” Mary
• Maybe for ‘wider church’
•
If not, whose words are they – what group, or part of the wider church?
• ‘elderly’? (crossed out) – not known
• Somewhere in the wider church?
• Maybe for wider church
• Some of our congregation and wider church might accept the language – it is not what works for me.
• Wider church, perhaps
• Wider Christian church probably more confortable than many in the UC
•
Are they ‘cherished’, ‘honoured’, ‘living’? Which word fits this statement best?
• Honoured – underlined 3 times – noted ‘archaic’
• Honoured, maybe
• Honoured understood as archaic
• archaic
• As discussed, these creeds may be honoured as out historic words but they are no longer relevant.
• Cherished? Yes, emotional ties to youth and family origins
• Honoured? Yes
• Living – no
• Honoured
• Honoured
•


Do they express and inform, or reflect:
• Continuity with historic, older ways…?
• YES
• Check
• Check
• check
• Yes
• Yes
• Yes – this is our heritage
• Yes
Current practice of the United Church… as it is emerging?
• NO
• X
• x
• No
• No
Local practice of Thornhill UC…
• NO
• X
• x
• No
• No, although these words might suit some

What parts, lines, or words were easiest for you to say with us?
• ALMOST NOTHING
• None
• We believe that God has revealed himself in nature and history, and in the heart of man. Holly Spirit dwells in every believer as the spirit of truth, power, holiness and love.
• First two lines
• I believe in God
• Both get tricky immediately after the first paragraph!
• Communion of saints

What parts, lines, or words were hardest for you to say with us?
• ALMOST ALL
• Trinity
• Holy Scriptures – some not very ‘holy’ – not only infallible rule of faith and life
• Sovereign design – predestination
• Article 5 – sin of man
• Article 7 – conceived of Holy Spirit – suffered for sins of the world, intercedes for us
• Rose from dead ascended into heaven
• Article IX
What parts, lines, or words were hardest for you to say with us? (cont’d)
• He descended into hell
• Most of it
• Very patriarchal, exclusive, supernatural, unbelievable, judgmental, fearful
• Creed and Lord’s Prayer are too anthropomorphic
• Too much father language
• Virgin birth
• Descended into hell
• Resurrection of the body??
• He was crucified for our sake? Uncomfortable with the whole sacrifice/propitiation thing to appease a judging God
• Descended into hell
• Rose again from the dead
• Not really sure about “Holy Ghost”
• Resurrection of the body
• Born of the Virgin Mary
• Conceived by the Holy Ghost
• Born of the Virgin Mary
• He descended into hell
•

Basis of Union – Articles of Faith

Read the headlines aloud – ask who recognizes them, from when & where.
• Never heard them before

Are these “our” words of faith – in the group, the congregation, the wider church?
• I do not think so – they are certainly not mine
• Hard to say they are “ours” if so few people are familiar with them

What group, or part of the wider church would buy or reject them in 1925 or now?
• Actually, I found I was okay with most of it

Are they ‘cherished’, ‘honoured’, ‘living’? Which word fits this statement best?
• Cherished – check
• Honoured – check
• Living – not really
• Honoured in that they reflect heritage





Do they express and inform, or reflect:
a) Continuity with historic, older ways…?
• Yes
• Check
•
b) Current practice of the United Church… as it is emerging?
• I suspect many people would stumble over the same parts as I did, but much of it still resounds
• No
•
c) Local practice of Thornhill UC…?
• Not sure
•

What parts, lines, or words were easiest for you to say with us?
• Of God to the end of “truth”. I am not sure about any of the balance…

What parts, lines, or words were hardest for you to say with us?
• This is very dogmatic and unworkable for me.
• Article 19 – I do not believe in a Hell nor in any physical resurrection
• II – scripture inspiration, infallible
• VII Jesus the only mediator between God and man / satisfied Divine justice
• XI ? sonship ?
• XIX – NO!
• XX – make disciples of all nations – teach okay – but convert??
• I am unable to say, in good conscience, any of the older creeds – makes me feel hypocritical, because I cannot believe in the God described therein. I believe that there are too many words whereas my faith and belief is very simple – to love and care for others.

Notes from Discussions:

 These older words of faith are not ‘our’ words of faith!

 We’ve got some nostalgia, and respect for antiquities

 If the church rejects all of the three newer statements, we’re left with these older words alone, which bother us more than the newer words…

 We are not a dogmatic bunch – would never kick anybody out, though they might exclude themselves from our ‘impure’ or ‘sloppy’ church

 Notes from Discussions:
Notes from Discussions: (cont’d)
 We get on with helping, doing, and don’t have much patience for expressly articulating why we do and help..

 Can you be ‘bilingual’ – able to think and speak in these old terms, and not need to translate every word into current diction without dissonance?

 Integrity and hypocrisy – we want to rationalize and come to peace with – or reject – these older words – but it would take so much time…

Additional Notes forwarded

Would like to see all these documents be honoured as historic documents and replaced with one only…

What words of faith do I accept for my faith?
How would I describe my faith? What do I believe?

“This I Believe”

I know and belive that you are here, God,
Beside me as I write
I know that you guide and direct me
to use my mind and my sight for the good of others.
I know and feel your presence, not only when I search for help
I know and believe that you send others
to comfort me in my sadness,
to help me grow in kindness,
to urge me to laugh in gladness,
to raise me up in spirit,
so that I, in turn, do for others
what you have done for me.
You are with me all the while.
You protect me from the world’s dangers.
Forever, you show your love, mercy and forgiveness
in the reflection of others.
Thank you.